MOC, on your Embiid comments, I would also like to distinguish between "hating" and sharing my "eye test fan assessment". And this is separate from his injury history, but what I see when he is (mostly) healthy:
#1. I believe Joel is super-talented, can make winning shots on offense and be a winning rim protector on defense. His MVP-level stats and impact on a team are legit.
#2. I also believe that despite the "winning gravity" Joel brings per #1, that he actually does not make the winning basketball plays that make the difference in the team truly contending for a championship. This is where the eye test comes in -- I've seen too many turnovers in crunch time, loose balls around him that the other team gets, contested rebounds that the other team's shorter guys get... Joel has weak hands, and is not "strong with the ball", as a mic picked up Jimmy Butler's encouragement to Joel coming out of a late-game timeout during 2019 playoffs.
And #2 was actually at the root of your sentence that started with "Jonathan Kuminga fell on his knee..." The bigger context of that play was Joel received a pass in the post with his back to the basket, and had it poked away by his defender... and it was a literal "poke" not some massive hack... and Joel proceeded to go sprawling on the floor to recover the ball, which is then when Kuminga landed on his leg. So, the "Kuminga injury" was not just some random bad luck thing done to Joel -- it was a direct result of weak hands, and the broader context of not making the winning basketball plays in the margins.
And so all that's fine... I don't hate Joel for not being that scrappy/making all the little plays guy. But the team does need to surround him with those type guys in order to win, and the Sixers can't be running offense in crunch time in the playoffs through Joel and expect to win against the best teams (as evidenced by last 8 years of early playoff exits).
And Joel himself is OK not being "that guy" and has encouraged Maxey to take over that role. And I still have hope because Maxey is a gamer... and VJ looks to maybe even have a higher upside than Maxey... just from being taller...
Anyway, thanks for your article and letting me comment (vent :-))!
Amos in the fly the process episode describes why a sixers fan could hate Embiid. At its core the weird loser front runner personality the sixers have year after year is the team taking on his energy. There are obviously other problems but the frustration that this podcast has run on over this era fundamentally emanates from an emotionally immature franchise player with loser energy.
It is also his cry-bully play style. He flops constantly and foul grifts like a small guard even though hes huge. I don't know another big man who relies so much on flopping. And then at the same time, he has his own history of dirty play and hitting people in the nuts.
The combo of his mopey loser energy and his play style is ore than enough reason for the hate and its totally separate from the injuries.
Could of went without the backhanded complement to TJ. He kind of has proved it wasn't a fluke the kind of impact he can have on a playoff game here or there. Not sure how the Celtics press convinced us we should be embarrassed if the only way we can win is with a scrappy, pass first PG...but they did.
I think you’re right about the gravity of the Fultz mistake on the Process era Sixers. And that’s ignoring the cost of getting him in the trade with the Celtics and the fact that we passed on Tatum to choose Fultz with the first pick. But I think if Fultz had developed into the starting PG, then Simmons ends up being sort of forced to develop a more sustainable game as a power forward. Maybe that either leads Simmons to a role on the team that worked better, or leads to a quicker meltdown that allows the team to trade him when his value was higher. I’ve lived through the franchise changing folly that was the fateful 1986 NBA draft where the Sixers traded the #1 overall pick to Cleveland for Roy Hinson, and then made things worse by trading Moses Malone to Washington for Jeff Ruland and Terry Catledge. That series of moves ruined the Sixers for well over a decade. Probably killed Charles Barkley’s career in Philly. But this Fultz draft is right up there with that ’86 disaster.
As for your point about all of the hate for Embiid, I can only speak for myself. I have been critical with the SIXERS here for about three years over the team not moving on from Embiid. This is not because I “hate” Embiid. I think he’s one of the more skilled big men I’ve seen play in the NBA. But people like me have gotten gaslit over advocating for the team to move on from him. Our opinions can be easily invalidated by calling us Embiid haters. Our suggestions to trade him have been met with the instant dismissing of the notion for reasons like, “you’ll never get back fair value” to “you don’t trade superstar players” to “nobody will trade for that contract.” I’ve heard them all. But the reason for wanting to trade Embiid as “early” as after the 2022-23 season was that we had enough information on him at that time to believe that he was prone to physically breaking down, and because he was the player the whole team was built around (and a very difficult player to build around), any loss of Embiid would likely cripple the team’s chance to compete for a title.
The Sixers are a franchise that has a long history of very bad decisions around players. So I don’t think questioning their insistence to continue to build around Embiid is about “hate.” It’s about extreme lack of faith that this is a franchise that makes the right moves at the right time. And I think we will all look back on this Embiid era (when it’s long over) and say the team failed to make the right move with him at the right time. That’s all. #NoHate
Agree with you 1000% on Fultz as the "original sin". I was absolutely one of those people who couldn't move past it (so was Bryan Colangelo, probably). That team as constructed, pre-Butler, with the Fultz we thought we were getting, was so well-constructed and had such a promising future.
I think the emergence of Maxey, along with the eventual Simmons collapse, diluted the impact over time.
I have his summer league highlights bookmarked and revisit it every year or so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfxxUo2asPY. He looked to be every bit as advertised...whatever happened to him happened between summer league and training camp that year.
I think PG gets so much hate because he's such a talker, and his last few years, plus his up and down playoff history, do not back it up.
You're also right about Fultz. Talk about a franchise cursed with bad top picks. Embiid, Fultz, Simmons, Okafor? You got maybe five good seasons out of two ones and two threes, in four years!
I wonder why 80% of nfl first rounders have at least a five year career, and ten of those players are really good, while the NBA draft remains a complete crap shoot.
Most NFL first round picks have played multiple years for big time programs. Many NBA first round picks are freshmen or from overseas. There is just much more info on the NFL draftees.
MOC, on your Embiid comments, I would also like to distinguish between "hating" and sharing my "eye test fan assessment". And this is separate from his injury history, but what I see when he is (mostly) healthy:
#1. I believe Joel is super-talented, can make winning shots on offense and be a winning rim protector on defense. His MVP-level stats and impact on a team are legit.
#2. I also believe that despite the "winning gravity" Joel brings per #1, that he actually does not make the winning basketball plays that make the difference in the team truly contending for a championship. This is where the eye test comes in -- I've seen too many turnovers in crunch time, loose balls around him that the other team gets, contested rebounds that the other team's shorter guys get... Joel has weak hands, and is not "strong with the ball", as a mic picked up Jimmy Butler's encouragement to Joel coming out of a late-game timeout during 2019 playoffs.
And #2 was actually at the root of your sentence that started with "Jonathan Kuminga fell on his knee..." The bigger context of that play was Joel received a pass in the post with his back to the basket, and had it poked away by his defender... and it was a literal "poke" not some massive hack... and Joel proceeded to go sprawling on the floor to recover the ball, which is then when Kuminga landed on his leg. So, the "Kuminga injury" was not just some random bad luck thing done to Joel -- it was a direct result of weak hands, and the broader context of not making the winning basketball plays in the margins.
And so all that's fine... I don't hate Joel for not being that scrappy/making all the little plays guy. But the team does need to surround him with those type guys in order to win, and the Sixers can't be running offense in crunch time in the playoffs through Joel and expect to win against the best teams (as evidenced by last 8 years of early playoff exits).
And Joel himself is OK not being "that guy" and has encouraged Maxey to take over that role. And I still have hope because Maxey is a gamer... and VJ looks to maybe even have a higher upside than Maxey... just from being taller...
Anyway, thanks for your article and letting me comment (vent :-))!
Amos in the fly the process episode describes why a sixers fan could hate Embiid. At its core the weird loser front runner personality the sixers have year after year is the team taking on his energy. There are obviously other problems but the frustration that this podcast has run on over this era fundamentally emanates from an emotionally immature franchise player with loser energy.
It is also his cry-bully play style. He flops constantly and foul grifts like a small guard even though hes huge. I don't know another big man who relies so much on flopping. And then at the same time, he has his own history of dirty play and hitting people in the nuts.
The combo of his mopey loser energy and his play style is ore than enough reason for the hate and its totally separate from the injuries.
Could of went without the backhanded complement to TJ. He kind of has proved it wasn't a fluke the kind of impact he can have on a playoff game here or there. Not sure how the Celtics press convinced us we should be embarrassed if the only way we can win is with a scrappy, pass first PG...but they did.
I think you’re right about the gravity of the Fultz mistake on the Process era Sixers. And that’s ignoring the cost of getting him in the trade with the Celtics and the fact that we passed on Tatum to choose Fultz with the first pick. But I think if Fultz had developed into the starting PG, then Simmons ends up being sort of forced to develop a more sustainable game as a power forward. Maybe that either leads Simmons to a role on the team that worked better, or leads to a quicker meltdown that allows the team to trade him when his value was higher. I’ve lived through the franchise changing folly that was the fateful 1986 NBA draft where the Sixers traded the #1 overall pick to Cleveland for Roy Hinson, and then made things worse by trading Moses Malone to Washington for Jeff Ruland and Terry Catledge. That series of moves ruined the Sixers for well over a decade. Probably killed Charles Barkley’s career in Philly. But this Fultz draft is right up there with that ’86 disaster.
As for your point about all of the hate for Embiid, I can only speak for myself. I have been critical with the SIXERS here for about three years over the team not moving on from Embiid. This is not because I “hate” Embiid. I think he’s one of the more skilled big men I’ve seen play in the NBA. But people like me have gotten gaslit over advocating for the team to move on from him. Our opinions can be easily invalidated by calling us Embiid haters. Our suggestions to trade him have been met with the instant dismissing of the notion for reasons like, “you’ll never get back fair value” to “you don’t trade superstar players” to “nobody will trade for that contract.” I’ve heard them all. But the reason for wanting to trade Embiid as “early” as after the 2022-23 season was that we had enough information on him at that time to believe that he was prone to physically breaking down, and because he was the player the whole team was built around (and a very difficult player to build around), any loss of Embiid would likely cripple the team’s chance to compete for a title.
The Sixers are a franchise that has a long history of very bad decisions around players. So I don’t think questioning their insistence to continue to build around Embiid is about “hate.” It’s about extreme lack of faith that this is a franchise that makes the right moves at the right time. And I think we will all look back on this Embiid era (when it’s long over) and say the team failed to make the right move with him at the right time. That’s all. #NoHate
Did they not get Maxey with the pick they got from Fultz?
Makes it pretty easy to move on.
Agree with you 1000% on Fultz as the "original sin". I was absolutely one of those people who couldn't move past it (so was Bryan Colangelo, probably). That team as constructed, pre-Butler, with the Fultz we thought we were getting, was so well-constructed and had such a promising future.
I think the emergence of Maxey, along with the eventual Simmons collapse, diluted the impact over time.
I have his summer league highlights bookmarked and revisit it every year or so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfxxUo2asPY. He looked to be every bit as advertised...whatever happened to him happened between summer league and training camp that year.
You're right about Embiid.
I think PG gets so much hate because he's such a talker, and his last few years, plus his up and down playoff history, do not back it up.
You're also right about Fultz. Talk about a franchise cursed with bad top picks. Embiid, Fultz, Simmons, Okafor? You got maybe five good seasons out of two ones and two threes, in four years!
I wonder why 80% of nfl first rounders have at least a five year career, and ten of those players are really good, while the NBA draft remains a complete crap shoot.
Most NFL first round picks have played multiple years for big time programs. Many NBA first round picks are freshmen or from overseas. There is just much more info on the NFL draftees.
That's true. Kind of crazy to bet millions on 19 year olds.